Tuesday, September 19, 2006

Does this make you angry?

From Pajamas Media:
Lieuwe van Gogh—thirteen-year-old son of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered by Islamists—is finding his life in increasing danger in his native Netherlands, while the Dutch police do nothing.


42 Comments:

Blogger rexie said...

Fucking furious.

12:12 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No difference between here and the Netherlands then.
RIP Pym Fortune.

12:16 pm  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

Any proof that this is more than just another Muslim-hating right-wing fantasy? Oh, and probably best you stay "anonymous": Pim Fortuyn was murdered by an animal rights fanatic, you fucking moron.

12:28 pm  
Blogger rexie said...

Amsterdam police say that they couldn't substantiate the report of the attacks - http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11826

“Lieuwe reported threats and assault a number of times but immediate and extensive investigation could not prove it,” the police said, declining to comment further on the matter.

So there you have it...

1:02 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Fucking moron"...bit strong jarndyce...I know damn well that Pym Fortune was murdered by an animal rights fanatic.
He knew which way the wind was blowing in the Netherlands, I repeat RIP Pym Fortune, just wish we had another like him.

1:48 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay, but Fortuyns murder was apparently done on behalf of muslims, proving that the threat not only lies with Islamists but with those who take it upon themselves to second-guess them.

They are themselves dangerous fools. In this malignant grouping, you find public offence-finders such as those who proscribe Christmas in schools and vilify piggy banks: people who open the doors to deranged saps like van der graaf.

1:51 pm  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

Fortuyn, like Van Gogh, was a racist prick, who most certainly didn't deserve to be killed for his idiotic opinions. He's only a hero to the kind of moron who has no understanding of the value of free speech.

http://www.thesharpener.net/2005/07/26/theo-van-gogh-was-no-critic-of-islam/

Fortuyns murder was apparently done on behalf of muslims

It's hardly worth replying to this, but which Muslims, specifically? Name one.

2:26 pm  
Blogger idontslam said...

jarndyce, you twit, Fortuyn and Van Gogh were critical of Islamists, who can be any race. It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the murderous, violent ideology followed by nearly 1.5 billion Muslims around the planet.

2:46 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Jarndyce, I will refrain from styling you in the insulting term you used to Anonymous, but Pym Fortuyn was famed, even in the louche gay world of Amsterdam, for the electivity of his racial preferences. He had boyfriends, some of them long term (for Fortuyn), not just tricks, of every race and colour on this earth. He was particularly noted for this among other gays. How does it feel to be hoist with your own petard?

Although it is speculation, I agree that it's possible that the "animal rights fanatic" was one of those obliging empty people without a life of their own who fret about second-guessing what the islamics might want. As anonymous 1:15 points out, Christmas was never mentioned by the muslims in Birmingham; it was proscribed by the Birmingham council "it case it gave offence". Like the people who wanted to ban piggy banks from banks (!), these people are as dangerous as islamo nutjobs because they appear to be speaking from a disinterested standpoint.

3:00 pm  
Anonymous Clematis Fraudster said...

"Fortuyn, like Van Gogh, was a racist prick, who most certainly didn't deserve to be killed for his idiotic opinions. He's only a hero to the kind of moron who has no understanding of the value of free speech."

Fortuyn wished to stem Muslim immigration into the Netherlands and took a hard line on immigrants who did not assimilate into Dutch society. He denied being a racist.

Strange as it may seem to some, Fortuyn's stance was supported by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who agreed with him that Islam is a "backward religion".

Ms Ali is black, female and was born a Muslim. She is no longer a Muslim but she is still black and still a woman. And still alive.

She too is seen as a hero by "the kind of moron who has no understanding of the value of free speech", as you so eloquently put it.

Is she a "racist prick" too?

4:24 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

It is not possible to be racist against a religion. There are five races in this world. None of them is islam.

People don't choose which race they are born. Adhering to a religion is a matter of choice. The stupidity and igorance of thinking that islam is a race is staggering. What is it? Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid, Semite, Polynesian and ... islam? Are you people nuts?

4:54 pm  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

This is racism 101 here, kids. I'm not going to do the work for you. If you can't see it already, then you're not going to take it from me. One thing to think about: there's a long way between calling Islam a "backward religion" and slagging off "sweaty Muslims" or "Hindu savages". Religious epithets can be used racially. It's so bloody obvious I'm surprised that intelligent folk such as yourselves haven't spotted it.

And I know it's utterly pointless arguing with you, Verity (if you're the Verity I suspect you are, that is). But a quickie:

Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid, Semite, Polynesian

So is spic an okay thing to call a felow Caucasian? What about gyppo, or kraut, or frog? Or maybe calling a non-Polynesian a gook? Or what about some of the colourful stuff that flies back and forward between Nigerians and Jamaicans? If you can't see the difference between critiquing religion and making offensive assumptions or remarks about an individual because of his religion (which he may not have chosen for all you know), then you are either dishonest or mad. Or maybe stupid.

5:44 pm  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"How does it feel to be hoist with your own petard?"

To Jarndyce? Pretty familar, I'd say.....

"his is racism 101 here, kids. I'm not going to do the work for you."

Translation: 'Shit! I forgot Islam was a religion, not a race... Quick, throw in some racial epithets not used by anyone in this thread (but they might have been!) & I might get away with it, if noone bothers to read the posts....'

5:51 pm  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"making offensive assumptions or remarks about an individual because of his religion (which he may not have chosen for all you know)"

Oh, priceless....! Racism is vile precisely because we cannot choose the race we are born into. Belief can be criticised because you are free to believe whatever you wish.

Don't like the religion you were born into? Change it!

5:54 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Juliam - you cannot get through to people like Jarndyce because they are so bound by their own prejudice, they are blind to how they appear to others. And, when bested in an argument, they start shrieking insults. Ooooh, "racism 101, kids". No, Jarndyce, you infant, "Ignorance 101, kids".

It is cruel and wrong to blame anyone in any way for the race they were born into. It was none of their doing. They just popped out into the world, and they were genetically that race. This is why it is illegal in most countries. Mocking someone for the way they were born is revolting and most people here would not defend it, I am sure.

Islam is a belief system. Adherence to a religion is a matter of choice. Can you understand that? There is no genetic make-up in islam. It is scientific. Genetics is a science. Each race has some genetic pointers that are peculiar to it. There are no inherited physical traits in a religion.

You can call someone a Kraut, meaning it as an insult because you don't like Germans, but it is not a racial slur because Germans are the same race as we are.

Repeat: genetically, in humankind, there are five races.

If you have discovered a new race called "islam", please email the Anthropology Departments of all the major universities in the world. And the anthropological museums will be interested, too.

A lot of them would probably appreciate a good midweek laugh.

6:44 pm  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

Fantastic, Verity, I knew it was you, the one and only Verity. Someone ought to find you a Chair somewhere. I suspect that your knowledge of the anthropology of race being stuck somewhere in the eighteenth century might be an issue, though.

I wonder, was Van Gogh's nickname for Muslims, "goatfuckers", racism, or just a bit of casual banter between Caucasians? Maybe it was his seriously intended critique of Islam. Admirable. What about Fortuyn's plan to enforce different marriage ages on Muslims and white Netherlanders? Or deport Dutch Antillians who failed to comply with an ideal of a true Dutchman, his ideal of course.

Racism is vile precisely because we cannot choose the race we are born into.

No, prejudice is vile because to make any judgement about anyone you've never met and know nothing at all about is base, stupid and wicked. To make those prejudicial judgements based solely on someone's heritage (including but not limited to skin colour, hardly any of which is ever consciously chosen) is racism. Is there anyone sane out there who believes that a white person calling someone a kraut or a paddy or a frog isn't racist? Claiming you can brand all Muslims as "X", hiding behind the spurious claim that you're critiquing their religion even when you're not, is idiotic in the extreme. It's pathetic. In fact, it's evil.

7:28 pm  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"To make those prejudicial judgements based solely on someone's heritage (including but not limited to skin colour, hardly any of which is ever consciously chosen) is racism."

Someone ring the Oxford English Dictionary! We have an addendum to make to the definition of 'racism'...

"the spurious claim that you're critiquing their religion.."

Oh, no, kiddo. Nothing spurious about it at all. I am critiquing their religion - I don't care about, and would not criticise, their race, a thing I find beyond the pale. What part of that do you not understand...?

And just what 'race' are Muslims anyway? From what I've seen, they include most races among their numbers....

7:43 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Jarndyce, who plods along like his namesakes, writes: "Is there anyone sane out there who believes that a white person calling someone a kraut or a paddy or a frog isn't racist?"

Yes. Of course.

"Racist" is a new word thought-control word brought in by the Zanu-Labour party. The problem is, the Zanu-Labour party is run by a lot of ignorant people, not least Tony and Cherie Blair, Alastair Campbell, all that coven on women in the Cabinet and so on and they have, in their arrogance, overlaid whole new meanings, which make no etymological sense, on words.

I never minded being called a Limey when I lived in the United States. It didn't refer to my race; it referred to my nationality and wasn't insultingly meant. Like Kraut and Paddy. They're references to a nationality, which is not a race.

You seem, Jarndyce, extremely hung up on race and determined to control the usage of the word.

You write: "Claiming you can brand all Muslims as "X", hiding behind the spurious claim that you're critiquing their religion even when you're not, is idiotic in the extreme." I'm not critiquing their religion? You know that for a fact, do you?

Do you think islamics from the Magreb are the same race as islamics from Syria? Or Indonesia? Does being islamic make all these people the into the same race, regardless of their genetic structure? You seem to be rather confused and angry and this seems to be very personal to you.

It is the belief system of islam I find repulsive, not people from Indonesia, Syria, China, the Magreb or, for example, Somalia ...

7:48 pm  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

Actually, I suggest you have a quick look at the OED yourself, Julia. One definition of race (there are many) is "a class of persons with a common feature". Another is "kindred". Both would certainly apply to some Muslim communities in some European countries. Nowhere, not once, is skin colour (or, as if you didn't know already, Verity's "famous five" races) mentioned.

And I'm not sure why you and Verity are getting so defensive. I've not labelled either of you a racist. It's Van Gogh and Fortuyn at issue here. And you haven't answered any of the questions about them above. I've no idea whether either of you two would be so idiotic and bigoted, racist if you prefer, as to make an assumption about someone just because they were a Muslim.

8:01 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Neither did I find it insulting at all,when living in France, when the French referred to "the rosbifs" snigger, snigger, snigger.

Neither did French people storm out of a room if they heard an English person referring to "the froggies". They know it means them. They just don't give a merde.

You see, as irritating as they are, the French are mature and confident enough to know it's a nickname. Like Kraut. Or Paddy. Or, a term I feel absolutely confident you fling around spitefully, Yank.

8:04 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Climbing down now, are you Jarndyce? Hit a nerve, have we?

You say it's a Fortuyn and Van Gogh issue, but you called Fortuyn "a racist prick" when he was absolutely one of the last people in the entire world who could have been labelled a racist.

What bothers you is, he didn't like islamics. That's the nub of all this for you, isn't it?

You write, still on your descent: I've no idea whether either of you two would be so idiotic and bigoted, racist if you prefer, as to make an assumption about someone just because they were a Muslim."

Oh, gosh, I would. Perhaps not an absolute assumption, but certainly there would be a very negative presumption that this person will uphold values I find repulsive.

8:14 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there anyone sane out there who believes that a white person calling someone a kraut or a paddy or a frog isn't racist?

Presumably black people needn't apply!

9:03 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there anyone sane out there who believes that a white person calling someone a kraut ... isn't racist?

I'm German and I like Kraftwerk and Can. Is it okay to say I like Krautrock?

9:06 pm  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"One definition of race (there are many) is "a class of persons with a common feature". Another is "kindred". Both would certainly apply to some Muslim communities in some European countries."

Oh, I see - pick the definition that suits your purpose, not the one agreed on by a majority. Conflate it to include 'all' not 'many' and bingo! New definition...

And those racial slurs, that no-one here used, and that you referred to in your feeble 'rebuttal'...? Your argument is running out of steam, kiddo...

"I'm not sure why you and Verity are getting so defensive."

Can't speak for Verity (she doers that very well herself) but for me, the baseless accusation of racism is the trigger for some rigorous clarification, I think...

9:07 pm  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

Really, Verity? I'd have thought an intelligent person such as yourself would first like to enquire as to whether your new aquaintance was an Alevi, or maybe a Sufi, or even an Ahmadi. Or perhaps whether they were a secular-minded Muslim of a more "mainstream" type - the ones who rarely went to the mosque (Christmas, birthdays, that kind of thing). Or perhaps they were only really Muslims in the sense that I'm a Protestant: brought up in the religion with little or no interest, other than in its philosophical heritage. Or perhaps they were the good sort of Muslims, more peaceful even than St Francis. Or maybe you'd just prefer to think of them all as "goatfuckers" until they prove otherwise? And, how ought they to do that? Please tell us.

Do you also assume every Jew you meet is a Kahanist, or is this treatment reserved for one group? I'm genuinely interested to know, just in case I'm one of the goatfuckers and need to get my speech ready.

Hit a nerve, have we?

This bit, I just don't understand. You see, so far we've learned about me: I'm a touch over-sensitive towards perceived bigots; I occasionally get cross with little provocation; I'm not busy with work today. You, just so far, have shown yourself ignorant about anthropology; ignorant about me (you fling around spitefully, Yank: Wrong!); unable to follow a simple argument; unwilling or unable to justify why you think Fortuyn not a bigot, when I've addressed specific questions; and fond of someone who labels "islamics" as "goatfuckers". Oh, and a bigot, an accusation anyone who can be bothered to reread the above will see I didn't make until you jovially admitted it.

I realise arguing with you is like discussing philosophy with a spambot, but, what the hell, sometimes I just can be bothered.

And those racial slurs, that no-one here used

Read again. Those accusations were directed at Fortuyn and Van Gogh, charges which you're obviously unable to refute and are becoming a little confused about.

pick the definition that suits your purpose

Well, I've taken 2 out of 8 in the OED. You, on the other hand, obviously hadn't even picked up the OED to check. It's pretty obvious to anyone remotely sane that I'm therefore justified in using the term "racist", according to the OED. If you prefer, then, I'll use bigot. Fine. Van Gogh and Fortuyn were bigoted pricks: discuss in relation to "goatfuckers", Fortuyn's marriage policies and the repatriation of Dutch Antilles Ducthmen. Or if you're not up to it, give up.

9:17 pm  
Anonymous Roast Boeuf said...

Krautrock

Now I'm thoroughly confused.

Apparently French people class Magma as Frog prog. Are they racist or just n*gg**s reclaiming "n*gg*r"?

What about Pasta Prog?

Please help me oh enlightened one.

9:22 pm  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

Please help me oh enlightened one.

Surely you don't mean me. Well, while you're awaiting Verity's wisdom, I'll offer this: I think the difference here is analogous to how you'd address a black person you'd never met when you bumped into him on the streets of South Central LA. What he calls his mates isn't really relevant. And I'm not sure "frog", offered jovially to someone who may not mind, is quite the same as labelling all Muslims "goatfuckers". Or do you disagree?

9:31 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Jarndyce appears to be one of those people who cannot brook an opposing opinion. If one has an opposing opinion, no matter how rationally stated, one is being "defensive" - a loaded word and usually used as a weapon.

Can we get this straight? Any opinion, strongly articulated, that opposes Jarndyce's opinion is defensive because Jarndyce's opinion should be assumed to be the universally correct one. I don't subscribe to that.

I think you owe an apology to the ghost of Pym Fortuyn for styling him a "racist prick" when actually, when what was generating your anger and insults is, he loathed islam.

9:31 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Why wouldn't you bump into a black person in River Oaks in Houston, or one of the other very, very rich neighbourhoods in the United States? Why does it have to be South Central LA? Typecasting a little here, aren't we? Plenty of extremely rich black people in the United States, as well as a large, affluent middle class.

I didn't bother to read your whole post because you do suffer from verbal diahorrea, but I wouldn't be interested in the sect of islam an islamic belongs to because they almost all,in my experience, have a stopping point that they can't get beyond. The fact that they don't control their criminally aggressive, violent and murderous confreres gives us a clue.

9:41 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If I met a stranger I would be unlikely to call them a goat-fucker or a nigger. This is nothing to do with racism but simply there being no need to be rude.

Theo van Gogh went out of his way to be a controversialist and for you to selectively ignore his insults to every other religion and national institution in order to advance an argument that he was narrowly anti-Muslim reveals something about your intellectual honesty.

10:07 pm  
Blogger AntiCitizenOne said...

Jarndyce's attempt to water down the term "racist" is a failure.

10:11 pm  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"for you to selectively ignore his insults ....reveals something about your intellectual honesty."

Oh, how true, 'anon', how true....

"You, on the other hand, obviously hadn't even picked up the OED to check."

Another assumption and/or totally fictional statement about what I might have done. You really don't like being on the losing end of an argument, do you, kiddo...?

One would have thought you'd be used to it by now.

10:14 pm  
Anonymous max said...

I like Kraftwerk and Can. wicked!
Roast Boeuf, thanks for the frogprog link. As much as I dislike frogs, there's nothing like the sound of Art Zoyd in the morning.

Jarndyce, your'e a fucken cunt.

11:40 pm  
Blogger permanentexpat said...

Jarndyce...or Paul Newman or whatever.....

Why don't you just go back to beating your wife......but no cheating! Remember the 'thickness of thumb' rule.

12:23 am  
Blogger jonz said...

Yes.

12:52 am  
Blogger Jarndyce said...

Is that *it*? 12 hours later and that's yer lot? Still no answers to the questions I asked. Still no explanation as to why Fortuyn and Van Gogh weren't bigots and racists, which was my original accusation. Just some boring insults. Next time I fancy a squabble with some bigots, I'll try to find some who have at least experienced some Enlightenment.

Another assumption...

No, an inference (an accurate one) based on the fact that you had *not the slightest clue* what the definition of race or racism was.

*sigh*

10:46 am  
Blogger Quinn said...

Leave it Jarndyce, they're not worth it!

11:42 am  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"an inference (an accurate one)..."

So now, either you can see me thtrough 't Internet & know what's in my library & what I do with it, or you just make things up to suit your needs ...

Hmm, which is more likely? By the way, you may want to look up a definition of the word 'accurate' too.

Sadly, I suspect Verity was right in one of her first posts - you didn't come here looking to convince anyone of your point of view, or hear anyone elses - you simply came to misunderstand (deliberately so?), vilify & condemn others' opinions while remaining in a state of blissful ignorance about the entire topic of conversation & isues therein.

1:20 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

Jarndyce, we have all explained racism to you and you cannot understand it. Again, for the last time, race is genetic.

You conceded that you would use the word "bigot" instead, having been trashed in your racist arguement. No, Limey isn't a race. Kraut isn't a race. Frog isn't a race. Yank isn't a race. Eyetie isn't a race. Ozzie isn't a race. Capice? I think you do.

You are a controlling, obsessive bore. You desperately want to be a person with some authority, but you haven't got any - demanding that people answer your questions -on a blog!

Pym Fortuyn was not a bigot. He was incredibly open minded. But he didn't like what the muzzies were trying to do to Dutch freedom. Just as we in Britain don't like what the muzzies are trying to do to 1200 years of British freedom. And just as the Americans are beginning to get militant about what the primitive muzzies are trying to do to American freedom. Oh, and the Aussies. Ooops! And the Canadians!

If Fortuyn was trying to stop islamics from the Netherlands Antilles from entering Holland, he would have had very, very good reason. It certainly wasn't because he didn't like black boys.

Pym Fortuyn spoke for hundreds of millions of freedom-loving people accustomed to the democratic tradition. And he was a self-made man with a vast fortune. Seems like he was doing something right, and you're not. Actually, he's one of my very favourite people. Far from being a "bigot" or, as you have so ignorantly tried to insist upon, a "racist" (god, how educational standards in Britain have cratered!)he was fighting for liberty.

My guess, you're an islamic or you're married to one and have a towering inferiority complex - richly deserved.

BTW - why did you capitalise enlightenment? Have you decided to be a Buddhist now?

Go away and try to browbeat people who are not cleverer than you.

1:33 pm  
Blogger AntiCitizenOne said...

The problem is attitudes held by people such as Jarndyce. They think they are other peoples superior, and thus should effectively own them and control what they get up to. This mirrors by the views of our islamic colonists, hence the alliance between these anti-freedom types.

Pim was superior to every practising muslim. His loss is much worse than the loss of Islam will be.

1:49 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

PS - Jarndyce - Buddhism is a religion; not a race. (Just to save you any future embarrassment.)

1:51 pm  
Anonymous Verity said...

anticitizenone - The loss of Pym Fortuyn was a genuinely tragic event - as was proven by practically the whole population of Holland lining his funeral route.

2:13 pm  

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